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La chute est-elle une dégradation? Le 19/02/2011. - _SatPMCETECET0FebE Bonjour à tous!

J'ai trouvé que le débat au café Murat était très intéressant! Ainsi, je vous invite à poursuivre la discussion!

De façon très synthétique, on a dit pendant le débat que la chute est le fait (plutôt le processus) de se détacher de son support. La dégradation consiste à priver quelqu'un de son grade.

Alors, être dégradé, est-ce une chute?

On a bien sûr parlé de l'œuvre de Camus et du mythe de Sisyphe par exemple.
Voici des informations (en cliquant sur le lien ci-dessous) sur le mythe permettant de savoir notamment pourquoi Sisyphe a été condamné à pousser le rocher, éternellement:


http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Mythe_de_Sisyphe

On a même évoqué la chute comme aliénation de l'être et même de l'Homme!
Bien sûr, ceci n'est pas un compte-rendu du débat, loin de là. Ce n'est même pas une synthèse mais le commencement d'une petite synthèse...

Je vous remercie par avance pour vos réponses!

A bientôt!

Nicolas.
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Re:La chute est-elle une dégradation? Le 19/02/2011. - _ThuPMCETECET0FebE Bonjour-bonjour !

Je suis Eomaïa et ceci est mon premier message sur ce forum !

Novice en matière de discussion philosophique, je viens m'essayer à communiquer par transvasement ma pensée.

Je me rappelle de mes cours de Français, au Lycée et Collège, où on nous apprenais à construire des "dissertations"... Je pense que cette époque me manque... Allons, voici mon plan pour vous attaquer, espérant que certains passerons m'enrichir de leurs savoir réthorique, et que quelques bonnes âmes prendrons le temps et aurons la bienveillance de se promener sur ce sujet en nos compagnies !

1 Intro : reprise du thème et des éléments mis à disposition, lançant le sujet vers une direction donnée, prémisses de ma conclusion devant révéler le fond de mon idée personnelle sur ce sujet... tel un engrenage, enrichissant ce système ou "débat d'esprits" sur un sujet particulier.

2 Développement : Redéfinir, argumenter et imager dans le fond et par des formes les différents éléments distribuant le chemin réflexif.

3 Conclusion : Ramener à une nouvelle solution, à un nouvel amalgame, à une autre question, synthètiser le raisonnement... opération des sujets...

J'avoue que je ne suivrais pas ce schème, parceque j'en suis incapable. Cependant, je me permet de la plaquer ici même, pour que plus tard, je le sache objectivé par ma pensée.

"La chute est elle une dégradation ?"

Où est quand la conscience d'avoir chuté se fait jour en l'esprit de l'homme ?
Toute vie est un mouvement, des avancements qui paraissent être des revivances du passé, des reculs qui semblent remettre en question l'avenir, sont des avancées.

Si dans son intégrité, Sysyphe n'est pas touché, et que sa peine de pousser le rocher est acceptée, qu'elle l'aide à évoluer mentalement, Sysyphe n'à pas chuté, il a changé de trône. Chuté de son socle qu'étais sa vie libre, et son nouveau trône, celui de vivre l'absurde plus fort qu'auparavent.

Si il voyais déjà sa vie absurde, il prend cette nouvelle expérience comme ce qu'elle est, une fuite de son absurde quotidien vers une absurde nouveauté.

Mental ou conscience, le fait d'avoir une chose impossible à réaliser peux le rendre plus fort et aiguiser ses facultés. Dans l'absurdité, il y a SURDITE, peux t'on rester sourd quand on aiguise sa volonté, sa force ?

D'ailleurs, rester sourd à sa volonté reviens à se soumettre et à ne pas se rebeller. Se rebeller, c'est écouter et revendiquer, c'est aller plus fort.

Être dégradé, cest perdre son socle, sa maison, ses compagnons de valeurs. C'est sortir d'un système pour entrer dans un autre. Avoir conscience de la perte porte au malheur de l'avoir perdu. Avoir conscience que rien n'est éternel, et que même l'absurde quotidien peux s'éffacer devant une absurde peine, permet de garder son intégrité personnelle.

Vis t'on les évènements en accord avec notre conscience ou en accord avec la place où le monde nous place ? Et quelques sois la chose vécue, le but de l'action n'est elle pas de nous aider à reprendre notre conscience pour mieux avancer vers de nouvelles absurdités ? La rebellion sert à faire reculer les limites de l'incohérence, et qui est plus cohérent que nous même dans notre propre système ? Accomplir une tâche ou une chose nous la rend intègre, parce qu'en lien et en face de notre pensée, de nos efforts développés. C'est notre conscience qui peux dire désormais "Cette chose absurde ne l'est plus, parceque je l'ai faite mienne et qu'elle m'appartient."

La peine est comme la larme : Dans l'oeil de l'affligé.
Chute et dégradation, sont des absurdités négatives...

Pourquoi ces simples idées existent elles ?
Voilà l'absurdité.
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Re:La chute est-elle une dégradation? Le 19/02/2011. - _ThuPMCETECET0MarE On peut évoquer plusieurs philosophes, écrivains, poètes... pour nous aider à "y voir plus clair" et à comprendre les principaux enjeux du sujet!

1) Marivaux, "L'Île des Esclaves".

Dans cette œuvre, deux maîtres (Iphicrate et Euphrosine), chacun accompagné de son valet (Arlequin: valet d'Iphicrate et Cléanthis: valet d'Euphrosine), arrivent sur une île après un naufrage.
Sur cette île, les valets échangent leurs rôles avec les maîtres: ainsi, Arlequin devient le maître et Iphicrate son valet et Cléanthis échange son rôle avec Euphrosine. On voit ici la chute des maîtres à travers le renversement des rôles!

2) Continuons dans cette logique en citant Hegel. Dans "La Phénoménologie de l'Esprit", Hegel dit que "le maître se rapporte médiatement à la chose par l'intermédiaire de l'esclave". Cela poursuit le renversement des rôles (déjà évoqué ci-dessus), car c'est grâce à son travail que l'esclave transforme la chose. Par conséquent, le maître est dépendant de l'esclave: on remarque alors la chute du maître!

3) Ensuite, citons Victor Hugo. Dans le poème: "Où vont tous ces enfants?" issu du recueil: "Les Contemplations", Victor Hugo dit:

"Accroupis sous les dents d'une machine sombre,
Monstre hideux qui mâche on ne sait quoi dans l'ombre".

Ici, le poète exprime son indignation lorsqu'il voit des enfants accroupis sous la machine. Il personnifie même la machine en la comparant à un "monstre hideux"! On assiste alors à la chute des enfants à travers l'aliénation constatée!

4) Enfin, il est intéressant de parler de Hannah Arendt suite à l'aliénation. En effet, elle a dit: "La machine se distingue de l'outil en ce que la machine guide la main et parfois la remplace tout à fait". A l'aide de cette citation, on constate la chute de l'être puisque l'être (ou dans un premier temps une partie de l'être) est remplacé par une machine!

Ces exemples illustrent bien l'idée de chute. C'est pourquoi, j'en ai parlé pendant le débat.

Message modifié par: Nicolas, à: 03/03/2011 21:09
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